Tactical MS usage

[Black_Magic 0]

Now, I've heard some very conflicting opinions on some of these questions before, so I'll ask them here to see what the verdict for this RPG will be.

 

-Is it possible to hide an MS under camo for an ambush, like those jungle Zakus in 08th MS Team? Or will a radar just pick it up and expose the hidden Suit?

 

-Which, if any, thrusters can we use underwater? Also, what weapons work underwater?

 

-Does Lightwave Barrier Array stop a beam saber?

 

Finally...

 

-Can Mirage Colloid be spotted by a heat sensor?

[Ray Katsuki 0]

Personally I think that.. (dont let the mod thing fool you im the art mod )

 

You would be able to hide a suit under camo netting as long as its not powered up (bad refernce I know but unpowered mechs dont show up on mech commander)

 

Im assuming that thrusters would have to modified to function underwater, as most normal thrusters would have an air intake for cooling, this would soon fill with water and ruin the thrusters.

 

As for the other two I honestly dont know enough to comment.

[Saren 0]

The lightwave can stop a beam saber. it functions much in the same way as a beam sheild does. As for the heat, i don't know, but if I had to guess, i would say no.

[fireminerva 0]

Hmmm as far as I know here's what I think are the answers to your questions.

 

-MS can hide under camo for an ambush however, based upon the way radar works, they might be detected.  Radar is similar to sonar in that waves are sent out, in radar's case they're mircowaves, the waves then hit the target and bounce back to the sender which then must have a way of interpreting them, via computer or whatever.  That being said, where you hide makes a huge difference; if you hide in a forest then radar would most likely become ineffective when used by a mobile suit since the trees would be the primary absorbers and reflecters of the radar being used.  I would suspect that being detected by radar is nearly unavoidable should thier be an AWACS MS in the area since detecting objects in the sky is far easier than it is from tehg round.

 

-Normal thrusters seem to be usable underwater based upon the fact that the Strike Gundam was able to fight underwater in SEED, however this might not always be the case since in SD Lunamaria gets mad at Rey since he cannot rescue her if she falls into the water.  So perhaps Gundams can operate underwater due to their designs but if a standard MS isn't designed for water combat it cannot participate in it.

 

As far as weapons go http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/Gundam/seed-destiny/zgmf-x31s.htm refers to phonon maser weaponry as beings a type of underwater weapon, though it was not installed on the Abyss Gundam.  Abyss instead seems to only use torpedos when underwater.  Phonon maser's are "beam" weapons which can be fired underwater with no weakening of the beam.  It also seems like standard beam weapons can be used at close range underwater since at one point in SD the Freedom fires its "Xiphias" rail cannons at the Abyss and damages its thrusters.  At this point it seems that beam sabers and the sort cannot function underwater.

 

-Lightwave Barrier Array, provided that I'm thinking of the right system, does not reflect beam sabers.  Whether this system be the one in use on the Akatsuki or on suits similar to the Zamza-Zah neither have stopped physical attacks made by beam sabers; if I remember correctly Shinn once used a beam saber to "cut through" the sheild of an MS.

 

-http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/Gundam/seed/gat-x207.htm states the the Mirage Colloid system makes the suit available to both the human eye and computer sensors.  I'm sorry that I don't have more on this but I believe the site is right based upon the Blitz Gundam's stealthy attacks and the attack of Bogey One in SD.

 

I know that I don't have any authority around here to say that what I said is the way things are but for what it's worth it's my two cents.  At the very least I hope that this can help someone else answer your questions and that that person may use this as a springboard from which they can either approve or disprove my statements.

[Mal Fain 0]

Taking a quote from GundamOfficial, which is not always the best site but at this very time seems to do the job quite well:

 

"The Mirage Colloid even blocks infra-red emissions, giving the Blitz perfect stealth capabilities."

 

Infra-red is commonly seen as heat, I say commonly because that's not quite everything, so the site deffinetly gives the imperssion that the Mirage Colloid can not be seen by heat sensors.

[Valiant 96]

Now, I've heard some very conflicting opinions on some of these questions before, so I'll ask them here to see what the verdict for this RPG will be.

 

-Is it possible to hide an MS under camo for an ambush, like those jungle Zakus in 08th MS Team? Or will a radar just pick it up and expose the hidden Suit?

 

-Which, if any, thrusters can we use underwater? Also, what weapons work underwater?

 

-Does Lightwave Barrier Array stop a beam saber?

 

Finally...

 

-Can Mirage Colloid be spotted by a heat sensor?

 

 

Here's my take on this:

 

1) It would be hard to detect an MS if it is on very low power. If it has a camo over it, it would be able to power up to a higher level given the greater heat shielding but it is only a very small difference in power level. A fully powered suit under a camo would still be detectable by radar. Of course, the environment provides some sort of cover as well so it really depends on the situation.

 

2) I would believe that projectile weapons and phonon masers would work underwater. Beam weaponry firepower would be greatly reduced, if it even works at all. As for the thrusters, I would think that only suits with specialised thrusters would be able to move with the normal versatility under water. A Gundam might have better thrusters that would actually work in water but it should still be at a disadvantage in terms of thruster efficiency.

 

3) The lightwave barrier should block a beam saber. I believe it works on the same mechanics as an anti-beam shield and thus it should be able to block beam weaponry.

 

4) Mirage colloid should be undetectable by any form of sensors. But I think we might need further verification of this.

[Wilhelm 0]

Mobile suits are able to function in water, just depends on the depth and how long the oxygen supply is.  A ground type gundam in 08th team walked along the ocean floor in order to bypass the Zeon mountain defense network. But also, Mobile suits wont be able to function in a deep sea environment unless it has thrusters capable of allowing it to jump back onto the ship carrying it. Also, I agree with beam weapons not able to work in the water.

 

Reasoning is the phonon maser, and how the strike gundam had to use its bazooka and armor Schneider in the battle.

[Black_Magic 0]

An angry post from one player to another I found while rummaging through another Gundam RPG:

 

Light and thermal radiation (heat) exist on the electromagnetic spectrum. They are electromagnetic waves. Radio waves, light waves, soundwaves, microwaves... ALL electromagnetic. Thermal radiation is, as I said, heat, which creates a byproduct called infrared radiation. This is the basis upon which heat tracking works: it measures the difference in IR radiation emission to show 'false-colour' images that we cannot see via the normal visual spectrum.

 

Primitive cloaking technology exists today. It bends light in the sense that it projects the image spherically opposite to it, so that we actually see what is behind the cloaked object. It also affects thermal radiation by projecting the thermal signature of the image it projects. In other words, it manipulates light radiation and heat radiation. It can only be assumed that the line is drawn between that and Mirage Colloid, seeing as that also bends light by its description.

 

What makes us sure that Mirage Colloid manipulates infrared and thermal radiation, though? Simply the fact that Mirage Colloid bends light AND radio waves (see my previous post, the wiki quote). By definition, Infrared waves are longer in wavelength than Lightwaves, yet shorter in wavelength than Radio waves. In other words, infrared waves fall in between the two. If it does not affect heat signature as you say, Tenrai, then why the hell does it seperately affect light and radio waves? Why would the designers of such a powerful technology go out of their way to cancel out a type of wave that sits right in between the other two they want to use, especially when being able to manipulate that type of wave would make thermal vision absolutely useless? Why not just broaden the spectrum to all three types of waves and amen to that?

 

Logically, heat signature cannot be a way of targeting a cloaked vehicle, at least if the cloaking device bends light and Radio waves like Mirage Colloid.

 

I think it makes sense, because the Wiki definition is what's said in there... and those aspects of electromagnetic waves and thermal radiation are accurate.

[Crusnik 0]

at fireminerva: The xiphas are rail cannons, and thus propel a solid peice of material with some kind of energy, thus masking it in a beam of light, that is why i beleive it is effective for shooting submerged enemies. the same can be said for archangels linear cannons on its sides (this is just my oppinion)

 

as for mirage colliod, if thier were to be any way of tracking it, then the archangel would of used  it since they knew how it was built, but they did not, so there fore it must be impossible to detect.

[winders 0]

This is SEED, ms are ridiculously versatile; Strike can drop in the water and still function, Gundam MK II drops in the water and needs major maintenance.

[Kaizer 0]

1) Radar only works if it can bounce off of something and relay the information to its respective reciever.  So if a suit has proper coverings and a good hiding spot, it can hide from enemy radar; and being powered up does make it harder to hide.

 

2) Most thrusters can be used underwater, though not at any great degree.  As many people have said, they would need to be adapted to keep water from building up inside them, so avoid using thrusters underwater unless you need to, or have the right kind.

 

3) I would think that a lightwave barrier would stop beam sabers, or it wouldnt be very strong at all.  Remember that Artemis uses the lightwave barrier, and it can stop almost any attack known to man.  Beam sabers are just a constant stream of energy, usually at low to moderate outputs; and it would take extremely high levels of energy output to shed through the layers of a lightwave barrier.

 

4) Wikipedia is right about Mirage Colloid, and colloid technology in general (namely its light bending properties).  Being a physics student, I can say with confidence that anything that can bend light like colloid particles do would have the ability to be perfectly invisible.

[fireminerva 0]

I appologize for this next part but I feel called to say it:  I fail to see how an MS being on or off, or at any power level would affect radar.  Radar only scans matter and not energy or potential energy.  Unless something is hidden whether it is on or off it is still physically there.  Mixing power levels with radar defies the limitations that radar has.  If power levels are going to be discussed then thermoptics and heat signatures should be brought into this conversation.

 

As far as this whole underwater issue is concerned I don't believe that it is wise to draw conclusions for how SEED mobile suits can opperate from other realms of the Gundam universe outside of the CE Timeline.  I say this only because the MS from each timeline are very distinct and the technology which was envisioned when Mobile Suit Gundam first came to pass has been replaced by new ideas.  Though a Gundam might be specialized enough to be dropped underwater I believe it should be understood that they are prototype MS designed to be used and tested in multiple conditions.  After that testing is complete less complex MS are designed and these are not specialty suits which can opperate in multiple environments.

 

I don't think that anyone has a problem in stating that a Gundam can be submerged in water and continue to opperate per the norm in the SEED universe.  The real question is what happens to a standard MS when it is dropped underwater.  It could be that ZAFT and OMNI have both developed underwater suits simply because a GINN or Dagger would not perform well underwater, though they would still be functional, but I don't think that this is the case.  I feel that both sides have developed underwater MS for the expressed purpose of opperating in Earth's oceans, my reason for assuming this is simple.

 

When any object descends below a certain depth within the water it is subject to a change in pressure.  Both space, land, and air exert 0-1 atmouspheres of pressure on any given object.  That being said water can exert far more pressure on an object than any other environment a MS can find itself in.  Given this any MS which would become submerged in water would have to find a way to equalize the pressure being exerted on it or be crushed.  Unless special equipment is placed within the MS for this purpose the only water for pressure to be equalized is for a leak to spring inside the MS and to let water in.  That being said to opperate at any significant depth, such as one from which an MS could attack a submarine, a MS would have to be specially designed to essentially not be crushed by the water around it.

 

For this reason alone I feel that while any MS can be submerged in water and opperate that only the specially designed MS, such as a Gundam or an underwater model, can opperate in the ocean with any hope of success.

[Valiant 96]

We refer to power levels because if your suit is powered up even on a minimal level, it would give off heat, which would be picked up by the heat sensors.

[fireminerva 0]

Right, that was something which I pointed out in my whole radar rant.  What I'm trying to get at is that thermaloptics and radar are two completely different sensors but we're treating them as though they're one in the same.

 

In the case of thermaloptic sensors camoflage would have to prevent the transferance of heat through the material.

[Black_Magic 0]

Look at the quote I made a few posts back, for stuff on Thermal vision.

[fireminerva 0]

I thought that what you posted was about the Mirage Colloid system.

[Black_Magic 0]

Yeah, but it does give some interesting points on thermal waves.