Character race information (a work in progress!)

[kct 0]

Since F.A.I.T.H is done with his character profiles guide, we should move to one of the other guides the old site have: character race guide.

 

This is going to deal with all the babble about Naturals and Coordinators, and the issue about hybrids, that is children born to Natural-Coordinator parents, that I have raised in the other thread (Valiant suggested that I move them here).

 

So far this is what I have in hand (from Wiki and other infos):

 

Naturals is the de facto normal human, born without any form of genetic enhancements from birth. They displayed normal traits, such as a normal learning pace and so on. A Natural's body state is dependent on the factors like health and parent trait.

 

Coordinators are humans who have went through any form of genetic enhancement from birth, usually at the decision of parents. Because of their enhanced genetics, they displayed qualities that are seemingly better than Naturals, such as a faster learning rate, and the ability to cope with diseases.

 

Unfortunately, according to an AI based on George Glenn, the first Coordinator to exist, Coordinators have strayed from their intended purpose, that is, to set the road map for human evolution for all of mankind.

 

Coordinators are usually divided into 3 categories, based on generations, although they can go on:

 

1st-generation Coordinators - they are usually born to complete Natural parents, who decided to have their children genetically enhanced, supposedly for a better future. Genetic modifications are carried out during the early phase of the embryo stage, in which the modified embryo will be inserted back into the mother for gestation and so on. Unfortunately, the mother's womb would not be able to support the genetic modifications in some changes, resulting in potential changes. The child of the Coordinator will be considered 2nd-generation Coordinators.

 

2nd-generation Coordinators - children of usually 1st-generation Coordinator parents, they will usually have the genetic traits (including the modified ones) passed from their parents, without the usual need to go through the process of genetic modification again. However, inherited trait is mostly dependent on the genetic properties of the Coordinator parents.

 

3rd-generation Coordinators - children of 2nd-generation Coordinator parents, they will continue the inheritance of the genetic properties of their Coordinator parents. However, they tend to be sterile, a situation which PLANT have tried to remedy by researching through various means, in the time being.

 

Extended humans (biological CPUs) are part of a secret Atlantic Federation (Earth Federation) project aiming at creating mobile suit pilots capable of fighting on the same level as Coordinators. It was codenamed "Biological CPU program" in the earlier stages, probably because the amount of mental conditioning (basically, psychological programming) the pilots have to endure. They are divided into 2 main stages, based on the amount of enhancements they underwent:

 

First Stage Extended (FSE) - humans who undergo some biological enhancement falls into this category. They have been mentally conditioned to effectively eliminate their sense of fear, and increase the level of aggression they display in a battle. Unfortunately, they are very reliant on Gamma Glipheptin, a performance-enhancing drug given to the Extended humans, and the drug affected the mental stability of the FSEs, causing them to behave in sometimes undesirable manner (like attacking their own squad mates in battle). Withdrawal symptoms tend to be extremely severe, as their nervous system might collapse due to the brief duration of the drug. They also tend to disobey orders at times; only threats of taking the drug away from them can make them listen.

 

Second Stage Extended (SSE) - they are humans who have underwent even more harsh enhancements than FSEs; the process usually include psychological and physical alteration, extremely heavy mental conditioning, performance-enhancing drugs, and harsh combat training (such as locking them up in a room, for them to kill each other to see who is the ones that will live in the end). Despite their ability to obey orders better than their first-stage counterparts, and being more stable, they required regular reconditioning, especially after battles. "Undesirable" portions of their memory will be regularly erased to prevent untoward "Incidents", especially after trigger words (a result of the psychological conditioning) is used on them.

 

I won't be placing Newtypes yet, that will be for later.

 

I realized something. Have the scientists in AD fixed the issue of infertility yet?

Edited April 6, 2007 by Guest

[liubei013 0]

This is an interesting point raised. If they have a Coordinator and a Natural parent, but was conceived naturally, would they be considered 2nd Generation Coordinators or some other form of intermediate? If a character has parents who are both Coordinators, they would be known as 2nd Generation Coordinators, since their parents are most probably 1st Generation Coordinators. (3rd Generation Coordinators have problems reproducing, remember?)

 

We would need to come to a consensus on how we should identify these people (ie, characters who have a Coordinator and a Natural parent). Half-Coordinator?  ???

 

Hmm...that's a bit tricky.  It doesn't help that the two main series didn't really deal with this particular issue.  (I suppose it's easier on both the writers and audience to deal with simple 'black and white' distinctions between Coordinators and Naturals. :/ ) 

 

But such a case would be quite likely, especially in neutral nations such as Orb and during peacetime when Coordinator/Natural relations were probably a bit better.

 

From another standpoint, it would seem that any child conceived through natural and unaltered means would still be considered 'Natural'.  The use of the 'Half-Coordinator' term would probably be something used only by the 'Natural' side of the population.  (since it creates a racial distinction that distances itself from Naturals)

 

Meh...this one's a toughie. >.<

[Valiant 96]

I realized something. Have the scientists in AD fixed the issue of infertility yet?

 

Nope, it'll not be cured. Perhaps somewhere down the storyline we could have a false cure but I'll never allow this to be cured. Yes, never is a rather strong word but nothing is perfect in this world. A Coordinator who has better traits than a Natural need something as a disadvantage that would put them on par with the other races. This is something. Even though it isn't much of a drawback, at least it's something

 

 

As for the Half-Coordinator, I took it from the idea of a Half-Elf. Half-Elves are generally regarded as inferior by both Elves and Humans, despite the fact that may Half-Elves inherit the better traits of both races. Such hybrids are considered to be outcasts by both parent races as they have tainted the purity of the races.

 

I agree with liubei that such Half-Coordinators would be used by Naturals. However, I would also like to propose that such a terminology could also be used by hard-line Coordinators.

 

From another standpoint, it would seem that any child conceived through natural and unaltered means would still be considered 'Natural'.

 

I would like to consider them as Naturals. However, we know that Coordinators born to Coordinator parents would be regarded as Second- or Third-Generation Coordinators. So it would be inconsistent to regard children of Coordinator-Natural parents as Naturals. I suppose, only true blue Naturals would be regarded as Naturals. *shrug*

[kct 0]

Something like Half-1st-Generation Coordinator would sound a little strange, although I also preferred characters having said properties to have a sort of bias, in the sense of leaning towards the Natural parent more, or the Coordinator parent more.

 

However, they will not be able to fight on the same level as Coordinators (like Serpent Tail's Elijah Kiel from the Astray mangas, he is a Coordinator but with mainly Natural physical properties, hence he was considered a failure in ZAFT, and conditions regarding politics will never give him a chance in EA).

Edited April 6, 2007 by Guest

[Valiant 96]

Half-1st-Generation Coordinator

 

That's quite a mouthful. Hence the choice of Half-Coordinator

[Kaizer 0]

This discussion came up on SEED RPG, and in my old race faq that I had posted, I had said that only one coordinator parent was required to conceive a 2nd or third gen coordinator.  The basic idea behind this was that while 1st gen coordinators were those that were modified inside the womb, 2nd and 3rd gens were merely humans that had inherited coordinator genes from their parents.  I mean, a coordinator has most of the same genes as a human, only more refined so that they are the 'ideal human'.  So the presence of some of these 'genetically refined' genes is the only way to say that one is a coordinator or not, so why shouldn't a 1st gen father and natural mother make a 2nd gen coordinator child?

 

Of course, this makes me wonder that if that is how we define a coordinator, then would it be possible for a 2nd gen coordinator and natural to make a natural child?  The 2nd gen coordinator would already have less 'refined' genes than the 1st gen coordinator would, and the natural parent would obviously have none, so it could be possible (though rare) that none of the coordinator's enhanced genes were transferred to the new child.

 

Of course, this is mostly speculation.

[kct 0]

That is why I came up with the bias thing, in terms of genetic alignment.

[Kaizer 0]

I guess the easiest way to classify coordinators would be by how far down the family tree they are, and not by how much genetic gunk they've got flowing through them.  Terms like half-1st coordinator, 1/4 3rd gen, etc.., would be hard to follow would they not?  The simplistic terminology would be something as follows:

 

1st gen: Genetically modified while in the womb (the traditional coordinator making process)

2nd gen: has a 1st gen coordinator parent (so a half-1st gen would be a 2nd gen, if we assume that coordinator genes are dominate over natural genes, and since both parents would contribute equally to the genetic makeup of the child, we would assume the child to lean towards the coordinator side of the family.)

3rd gen: has a 2nd gen coordinator parent, but NO 1st gen parent.

 

If we assume coordinator genes to be dominate, then we wouldn't expect to see any real results until the 3rd generation.  The already thinned coordinator genes of a 2nd gen are no mixing with those of either another thinned 2nd gen, or a natural.  If a said percentage of the coordinator genes express themselves in the child (greater than 1/3 for example), then we would call the child a 3rd gen.  If there aren't enough of these genes present, then we call the child a natural, as it'd be hard not to distinguish him genetically from another natural.

 

Obviously, this matter doesn't come up in discussion much because of the relations between naturals and coordinators inherit with the Cosmic Era universe.  So few naturals pair up with coordinators, and coordinators have only been around long enough for the 3rd gen problem to be a recent development.  A natural child of a coordinator parent could call himself a half-coordinator if he wants, but genetically, there wouldn't be much reason to call for another race listing.

 

Now this has also got me into thinking about what the child of an Extended would act like?  Obviously, there is nothing to go by that is set in stone here, as I don't think that any extended character has lived through an entire SEED storyline, so the prospect of children are slim to none.  Most extendeds are naturals in effect, but the physical alterations that 2nd Stages go through, and the harsh drug treatments of the 1st stages could have an effect on the child (much like drug abuse, heavy drinking, and smoking can affect children in real life).  Would we be looking at just the chance of deformities, or could the drugs and such mutate in the womb, having some unforeseen effect on the child, such as inheriting some of the psychotic behaviors induced by the drugs (obviously block words wouldn't be inherited, as those are a result of mental conditioning, not physical or genetic)?

 

*Ish having scary thoughts of Stellar as a mother* 0_o

[kct 0]

I don't think Extendeds have a very limited chance of bearing children at all, the treatment they went through would have an effect on their reproductive systems, not to mention they do not live long (according to Sven anyway).

 

Even if they can bear children, some people may not be happy about it .

 

Assuming a child can be born, he or she is most likely subjected to the treatment Extendeds get, or it will be very tough for them to fend for themselves.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Guest

[Valiant 96]

Kaizer's categorization seems good. But a question popped into my head. What does a 1st generation parent and 2nd generation parent give?

 

Here's what I understand from Kaizer's post.

 

1st generation: Genetically modified while in the womb.

2nd generation: Born from at least one 1st generation parent.

3rd generation: Born from at least one 2nd generation parent but no 1st generation parent.

 

This means that even if the child has a Natural parent, if the other parent is a 1st generation Coordinator, the kid would be a 2nd generation Coordinator.

 

 

With regards to the point raised about Extendeds, I agree with Kaizer's speculation. The performance-enhancing drugs administered on them would have a high chance of affecting the foetus. However, we do not know if the drugs are teratogenic or if they even diffuse across the placenta (not all drugs do).

 

We would need to make assumptions, if we are to come to a conclusion on the effects of these drugs. If the drugs were teratogenic, the most probable outcomes would be deformity or mental retardation, since that's the usual effect if a drug affects the brain development of the foetus.

[kct 0]

As far as I'm concerned, Extendeds going on without their supply of drugs or Gamma Glipheptin would die, the consequences would result in a certain level of dependency on the drug, by the least.

 

Prolonged periods without the drug would first result in a breakdown of the nervous system after some time, and several other effects before eventually leading to death.

[Kaizer 0]

@Valiant: Got it in one, thats exactly what I meant  .  I think a 1st Gen and 2nd Gen parent would most likely create a 2nd generation coordinator, but there would always be the chance of a 3rd generation child occuring as well.  We have to stop thinking that the genetics of child birth can be predicted perfectly, as there are a multitude of different outcomes with each child birth.

 

As well, I believe the most common answer to the 3rd gen sterility problem would be solved (or at least put on hold) by having the 2nd gen parents turn their child into a first gen coordinator.  All it takes is to alter the embryo during the gestation period, so its not only naturals that can have 1st gens (though I expect that the money to have the procedure done would be of some concern.).

 

@KCT: We are not debating as to whether or not extendeds can survive without the procedures and drugs they have become accustomed to (as we all know they'd shrivel up and die), I'm more wondering as to just how the drugs affect a possible child, and I'd have to agree with Valiant that if the drug is teratogenic (there's my new word for the day ), that it would have some debilitating effect on the child.  Mental retardation, deformities, stunted or accelerated growth, possibly even a psychological disposition towards aggression?

 

Man, this is giving me so many ideas for a new character, I hope we can get to make multiple charries (excluding NPCs) sometime soon, I wanna make my old Kaizer character into an extended child .

[kct 0]

You should be happy that we got a platform to talk about this issue over , although I do not feel like talking about extreme biology at the moment (exams!) .>" title="" /> .

Edited April 10, 2007 by Guest

[Valiant 96]

Well, even drugs like a derivative of Vitamin A (isotretinoin) used topically for acne care can be a teratogen, what are the possibilities of these performance-enhancing drugs affecting the foetus?

 

Perhaps we could draw up a list of known teratogenic effects of these drugs and list them under the Extended section on the CC. I wonder, how many forms of drugs were used and how the drugs are used.

[kct 0]

The only named drug is Gamma Glipheptin though.

[Kaizer 0]

Its impossible to say just how many different drugs were used on the extendeds, when the only known drug is Gamma Gliphetin for the 1st stages, and its unknown if the gliphetin was used on the 2nd stages in any way shape or form.  And of course, all information on the 2nd stages are probably destroyed by now, or at least kept as the highest of classified materials; making it hard to know for sure just what was pumped into extendeds like Stellar, Auel, Sting and any others.

 

Wikipedia lead me to an interesting tid-bit of information on teratogenics, and it should be just what we need to make a mock list of effects.  Teratogenicity of drugs.  According to the site, drugs that are taken between the period of conception to 2 weeks thereafter usually have an "all or nothing" effect; namely that the Zygote either dies, or develops an immunity to the drug and is unaffected.  We could assume that the Extended drugs fall into this category, as extendeds require the drugs to survive.

 

But if an extended had been able to survive without the drugs for that 2 week period, then was weened back onto them, the drugs might have other effects on it; such as physical deformalities, metabolic or functional defects, or even an abortion.  Its already hard for modern science to show clear relationship between teratogenic drugs and birth abnormalities, so we shouldn't expect to have a clear cut answer for the extendeds as well.  Some common effects are:

 

Abortion, developmental defects, malformations (minor or major), growth retardation, mental retardation, carcinogenesis (cells turning into cancer cells), mutagenesis (genetic mutations).

 

The site also offers a list of known teratogens and their specific effects, but its too long to put directly here, so just check out the site ((I'm lazy ))

[Vanguardian 0]

Okay, I glanced over the topic posts here and I think my question is relevant to this topic of races.

 

Well, I just bought Vol. 7 of Destiny (U.S.) and something interesting came up.  Apparently Gilbert is remembering the past and Talia is shown telling a younger version of him that they couldn't be together because she wanted a baby but PLANT birth regulations wouldn't permit that, so my question is if anyone knows what she's talking about?  Does it mean that the PLANTs have some sort of child limit laws and such?

[kct 0]

I don't know about that, although I remembered it is the thing about 3rd-gen Coordinators.

[Valiant 96]

Perhaps I could work something out with regards to the drugs used by the Extendeds. I never expected my professional knowledge could to come into play in an RPG

 

Vanguardian, thanks for sharing that. It's a pretty interesting point to note. Does anyone know which generation of Coordinators are Talia and Durandal? If we know that, we might be able to come to some sort of assumption, at the very least.

[kct 0]

Problem is that they are mostly stated as 'Coordinators' for most information, although given that it was quoted by a staff saying that Durandal is involved with experiments to deal with the reproduction problem, while he is still a doctor.

[Kaizer 0]

We could make a guess that Durandal and Talia are both 2nd generation coordinators if it has something to do with birth regulations.  Obviously the populous of the PLANTs understand that 3rd gens are sterile, and they would probably want to limit the number of sterile children they bring into the world, if only to preserve the Coordinator race (it costs a lot to make 1st gens after all, and they would rather see the money and time be spent on solving the 3rd gen issue).  If this was the case, then there might be a law in place that would prevent 2nd generation's from having children.

 

But using my proposed idea from before, if Talia was a 2nd gen, and she had a child with a 1st gen, the chances would be more stacked in the favor of the child being a fully functional 2nd generation Coordinator.  I doubt the PLANT birth laws would have been something like a limit on the number of children born, or it wouldn't have mattered who the father was, Talia just wouldn't have been allowed a child.  Though I wonder if there are any other child birth regulations like that at the PLANTs?  I mean, the PLANTs are space colonies with a far more limited amount of space then most countries or nations; so wouldn't they want to have something in place to regulate overpopulation?  Mind you, I can guess that such a problem hasn't occured yet mostly due to the 3rd generation sterility issue (no need to worry about babies if no one can make em  ).

 

If you want any help with the extended thing, just ask Valiant; I may not have the same level of knowledge in chemistry, biology, or pharmaceuticals, but I'll do what I can to help with the brainstorming .

[Valiant 96]

Thanks for the offer, Kaizer. 

 

I don't intend to work on that until my finals are over so there's no hurry. However, there are many other issues in the Cosmic Era that are not fully explained. Perhaps we can try to identify them and attempt to provide some answers so that we can paint a clearer picture to help us out in our RP.

[kct 0]

Way too many issues, like Newtypes and such. Of course, given the chance I would help too, after my exams are done and over with this Friday.

[Valiant 96]

We can work to solve this issues and make our mark as the Gundam Seed site to go to