Battle system

[Valiant 96]

There were plans for a battle system that isn't unlike the DnD system. However, due to commitments in other areas, that has taken a back seat. I know that it would be a better gauge of battle outcomes if we go by stats and determine the outcome.

 

Do you think if we should implement such a system? If this were to be so, what are some features you would like to see? Please give detailed answers for your proposals.

[Kaizer 0]

The problems with a stat based battle system would be that we would have to make stats for every canon mobile suit, as well as look over the proposed stats of any custom suit before it gets approved.  As well, seeing as the skill of a pilot usually takes precedence over the suit itself (eg. Mu La Flaga, or Elzam V. Branstein from SRW), we would have to set up stats for each character as well.  The problem with that will be determining how to balance starting characters.  Some people are made to be more respected or experienced than others, even from the beginning (I.e. most of the faction leaders' characters), and should technically have better stats than another character, even if they started at the same time and participated equally during RPs (my Kylier character might pilot a MS someday, but she would never be a match for Lune Zoldark).

 

If you have ways of addressing these, then I would welcome the system whole-heartedly (I love RPG's with customizable stats; hence my love with SRW ).

[Valiant 96]

How about taking smaller steps then? Classify the suits and then give them stats according to their classes. That way, the difference in the abilities of the suit would be factored in but would depend mainly on the character's stats.

[fireminerva 0]

Character stats are an interesting way to judge battles but it would also be a little complicated, I just left a Naruto RPG site which did something similar and it was very annoying.  If character stats are used then every character should start at the same level and earn stats as they go along.  This would ensure level footing for everyone as well as the chance to create custom stats.

 

Actually I just had a good idea.  Why doesn't everyone start at a common level, with a few exceptions perhaps, and then anyone who wants to could buy points to improve their stats.  This would give us, the admin, the ability to moderate everything while also making sure that people earn what they have.

[Valiant 96]

If we were to implement the battle system, it would be experience-based, ie you gain XP for each battle won and once you gain a certain amount, you'll level up. Every character starts at level one, regardless of your status in the faction.

 

However, the main concern is about the details of the stats system, rather than the work flow. Work flows can be easily tweaked to enhance the playing experience. What I'll like to know is what kind of stats would we want for characters? How about the mobile weapons? And the damage system etc.

[konigstiger 0]

Does this battle system concerns also of those that are foot-soldiers and ship captains?

[Kaizer 0]

What stats to have is a large concern, as well as what skills, if any, a person could learn.  For example, we could have SEED Mode available to people as they level up (though I wouldn't suggest it, given that it gives god mod abilities), or Newtypes could have their abilities develop as time passes (start with minor precognition, and work up to DRAGOON control and minor telepathy ala Prayer Reverie). In terms of mecha stats, we could have something along the lines of the following;

 

HP: self-explanatory

BP: Battery Power

Spd: movement (ability to get from point A to point B)

Agi: agility and maneuverability (dodging ability)

Arm: Armor (damage reduction)

And weapons would each have their own set of stats with range, ammunition/en consumption, damage, and base accuracy  (Yes, this is probably all sounding similar to SRW, but what can I say, they do mecha right ).

 

For characters, we'd have to be a little more in-depth, as we would have to account for both mobile weapon and person to person combat (and possibly person to mobile suit 0_o).  Possibly something DND based would be best to begin with;

 

HP: self explanatory

STR: physical power (melee attacks for character, recoil response in mobile weapons)

DEX: hand-eye-coordination (accuracy and dodge both in and out of mobile weapons)

CON: durability (health modifier for character, ability to withstand injury in mobile weapons)

INT: intelligence (measure of knowledge, additional accuracy and dodge for mobile weapons)

WIS: wisdom, common sense (measure of knowledge, possible combat boosts for newtypes?)

CHA: wit, luck, charisma (luck and reaction time, possibly for SEED mode or similar skill activation?)

 

One of the best things about a stat system would be that we could regulate SEED mode and Newtype abilities a little better.  SEED mode would be similar to an activated ability of a DND class, giving a temporary stat boost over a certain period of time (stat boosts and duration would increase with successive level ups).  Same would go for newtype abilities (learn over time as I said above, with Newtype skills being bassed off of WIS and/or CHA in terms of effect).

 

Ship captains would possibly follow the same rules as mobile weapon pilots, only we assume that their ship has a far lower agi stat, and far higher armor.  Though this would assume that the ship captain controls all of the ships actions (and the rest of the ship crew wouldn't have their stats apply, assuming they had stats).

 

Feel free to point out the flaws in my vague definitions, this is only meant to give a starting point as to what we might need for actual stats (battle system calculations and experience measuring can come later).

[DragonDaimyo 3]

My main concern is the way in which experience points are earned. I can think of no more frustrating thing than for a rather skilled RP'er to come to the site, join up, do everything that needs to be done (profile and whatnot), then get the pants beaten off him largely because his opponent happened to have joined before him and has gotten more stat points than he has available. I would actually minimize the importance of actually winning the fight to gain XP (though it can still give a nice bonus), but instead award XP based on the relative skill shown by the combatants in the fight. In this way, even if the battle is lost, a good RP'er still gains some good benefits, and there is no sense that the time was wasted. In addition, the best RP'ers would eventually get the best stats, meaning that skill is still important to the equation.

 

This, of course, means more work on the staff's part, but I think it's something important to consider. One of my biggest objections to such a system has been that in many cases, the skill of the player is minimized as a factor to the strength of the character. This would largely eliminate this problem.

 

On another topic, I would also suggest the possibility of making a Coliseum sub-forum for matches where non-combatant characters (like Kaizer's Kylier character) can earn experience, since they're not likely to do battle in the main RP.

[PhoenixForce 0]

I agree partially with what DragonDaimyo. I agree it would be unfair for a new character to come against rather skilled characters, especially if it is their first character and they are only just getting used to it.The problem with gaining XP win or lose though, is that it would take away the importance of actually winning the fight and therefore would be too easy and eventually boring. The whole point of XP is to gain it by defeating your enemies not losing to them.

 

I think there should be a rank system that will effect the XP. If a lower rank is versing a rank too high, they shouldn't gain anything as the battle was most likely set up purposely for the lower rank to win and it should be the same if a high rank is versing a rank that it knows it could easily beat.Ranks could also be based on the number of stat points that player has gained. This would stop unfair battles.

[darkphoenix 0]

Hmmm, about ships/ship captains stats - model "captain=pilot of ship" sounds for me not-so-good. I'd prefer in this case using of system from "gundam-g-generation games" - captain's stats affects everything (of course), but, for ex., DUR of ship more affected by stats of main mechanic etc. Of course, even without such characters ship can function, but not as good as possible.

[Aures Convicio 0]

I like Kaizer ideas, but there has to be several explanations, for example in battery power how would the battery work, I mean you have x rounds with your battery and then for every X shots you loose one round of battery?

 

With characters I am not a big fan of the D&D character stats idea.  The difference here than in D&D is that in D&D you have to roll for everything (they are exeptions, but that is pretty much the general rule).  The problem with this system is that it would limit the character's development from a writing standpoint.  For example if a skimmed in intelligence and I came up with this plan to place beam rifles on the top of a montain, then attach a small remote on the enemy MS and lure them to the range of the beam rifles (which can be done with today's thecnology, I imagine in the Gundam Universe is pretty simple)....can my character think of that plan?  How do you know if I am smart enought to think something like that.

 

The problem with stats is that sometimes people can't play with a different level of knowledge than the character in game.  Also a stats system with out rolling puts some people in a severe disadvantage, they might be dummer in character, and not quick enough plus you have to add the fact that the suit is not as good too.  I understand that you want to implement a system where people can potential SEED, and use Dragoon, but stats systems are better left for actual dice rollling where the stats is not the only determining factor.

 

If something like this would happen, I would like more a feat systems.  As you level up you gain more feats, wihch could translate to character development better.  (ex. feat one - Newtype 1 powers- means whatever something very weak) when I level up X numbers of levels I have the option of taking Newtype 2 or Officer Training (means you can control your squad of NPC in actual battle) or Tactics ....that way mechanics can take the mechanics feats suchs as MS repair, Ship Repair and ultimately be a good enough mechanic that they can boost the stats of MS and ships...

 

For either system to work you need to create clases to guide people if your character is a mechanic these are the mechanics ability scores or feats that we recomend or it brings automatically.  Means if you choose Capital Ship Officer Class you start with Officer Trainig, and is recomended that you take Tactics....or in a ability score system have high charisma and intelligence and wisom so peopel are more likely to follow orders.  While a Pilot might start with MA Piloting, proficient in light weapons  or have high dex and int, Mechanics would start with MS/MA Repair and Ship Repair.  Now the beuty of the feat system is that people might actually have the chance to pick feats from other clases...let's say you want to be independent from mechinics you might grab you own feat to repair MS/MA so you can fix basic problems, however you scafice from taking another feat that might potentially make you a better pilot.

 

The feats systems puts a limit on skills that you might know, to avoid a person that might be a mechanic, pilot, politian, officer which you can do...but you won't be any good in any one of them. 

 

Another problem that I see with the ability scores are the natural vs. coordinators...to be realistic coordinators should get more ability scores in almost every category than a natural.  Unless you are a extended and then you can pilot better.  How to balance races and make them realistical to the series might be a problem with ability scores, since there is no rolling involved

 

As for ships and how they work, I would say they work like MS their basic stats determines evrtything, but if people in the ship have feats or bonuses to improve the ship.  Their stats increase...for example let's take Minerva Red against Minverva White....They both theoretically should move the same rate and have the same firepower, but in Minerva rate you have a mechanic with the feat of Work under presure (I am making this up in the fly) which means for this exercise means that under attack of in a battle he increase the durability of the ship by 2, while the White side has a captain that has manuvering tactics which means that the captain know more manuvers than the standard captain so they add 2 in their dodge bonus, but if their mechanics have the work under pressure feat then the white also gets a plus 2 in durability. 

 

However feats means nothing if not use properly in battle.  The stats are there to avoid random ship from EA outrunning a Minerva class vessel from Zaft...I mean it can't happen. 

 

This could work for MS, I mean Ginn should not beat Strike Freedom in thrusters, but it can use other weapons such as terrain to their advatage and make the battle closer.  Like I mention like 5 times in this post the problem with stats is that it inhibits the character from doing stuff, like bluff their way out, or outthink a smarter oponent.

 

Let' me know if you guys like this system and I hope this post makes sense,

 

However I would be more than happy to make the basic system and the Mod and add and subtract feats, the classes that I would recoment

 

Pilot (self explanatory)

Mechanic (self explanatory)

Ground Soldier (Infantry men)

Special Forces (a hybrid of infantry men and pilot)

Medical (Doctor, good for a ship and heal characters injuries)

Singer or artist (hey!!! celebrities exist in the Gundam World, now that lacus is gone E can claim back all the gossip)

Politian (Plot device characters, also good to formulate grand stategies)

Ship Officer (Captain of Ship)

Paladin (just kidding)

 

Feel free to tell me of classes and possible hybrids...please not hybrids are not supposed to be more powerful than a straigh up class)

[darkphoenix 0]

Hmmm,I like this idea) As for classes - maybe as sub-class Officer (or Wing Commander) - to differentiate them from just Pilots. And if we will use this system - maybe every class shoud have some sort of basic skills, that they get right from the start?

[Aures Convicio 0]

I though that every class is given some skills that correlates to their class, and the person can choose a personality skill

 

Like Military Training - if you character was in the military he gets a bonus on certain things

Educated Man -

Wise

Wealthy

 

 

Once they pass lv. 1 they can custimize their skills, but the class system are just recomended.  This way if you want to SEED, you can try and do it, but I will try and make it as Hard as I can and the rewards not good enought to not  encorage it, and also with the mobile suits stats SEED has only a certain effect, the same with new type ability you can take those however you are sacrificing other feats.  The idea is that you don't have to SEED or be a newtype in order to be good, you can be a regular pilot and be really good at piloting and not have special abilities. 

 

I mean if the admin wants I can write a formal proposal to them explaining in greater details and write more examples

 

But this is an idea and is all subject to change, however I think the mobile suit should have stats (because they are mechanical) and their stats could be boosted by their character, hence experience pilot would be able to fly a Zaku almost at the same level as someone piloting a Gouff because he is more experience, but this should affect the way we RP minimally

 

However character stats I don't like because it would minize the people that understand their stats and would severly limit their actions.

 

Now that I think about it more certain skills might not avalable to the regular memebers and given to the Mod, (like Wing Commander, or cutimizeable mobile suits, Faction Flag) feats or skills that explains why they can be in charge or a squad.  I don't know just bouncing around ideas...have to hear if the big cheese like this idea

[Valiant 96]

Those are great ideas been thrown around. Good brainstorming.

 

To address the concern about the stats taking over the characters' freedom to act and determine the outcome, I have a possible solution. We use the stats and die roll to help us determine the uncertainty of outcomes of events. However, freak accidents may happen if you get unlucky and end up with a poor roll. That can be solved by leaving the final decisions to the Narrators. Their say is final and they would be the ones to decide if they would overrule such an outcome.

 

Also, the stats would not be used to determine all actions. Rather, the stats would be used mainly for battles (unless there's proposal to use them in other areas), and determine the outcomes.

For example, I fire a shot at my opponent. What determines if I hit? I do a die roll using relevant stats versus the opponent's stat roll. It would be determined where I hit and for how much damage. Of course, if I get lucky and get a one-in-a-million head shot from a long distance, the opponent can request for Narrator intervention to void the roll result and re-roll for the outcome.

 

I hope you get the drift here.

[t569ssgoku 0]

As someone sadly (for my social life) who is very familiar with a wide array of RPG systems, from D20 to SAGA to SPECIAL I guess I will chime in. I am actually working on a conversion from D20 Modern or Star Wars for GUNDAM! Mainly Wing right now but I want to do Seed as well.

 

First, any stat based RPG is going to hurt the overall role-play. Too many people just don’t feel the need for some reason at a D20 table to really describe what they are doing. They just rant, I move and attack, roll time! This is really because most stat based battles take forever to do all the calculations and you want to cut time as much as possible. Also, you lose flair from battles like how you draw your double sided beam saber or how you shoot your 1,000,000 beam and railguns on your obscenely near broken Gundam (thanks Kira and Athrun).

 

Some RPGs such as the Dragon Ball Z one (note: NEVER BUY THIS RPG! IT SUCKS!) have extremely loose rules and specifically  reward players for striking poses, acting out attacks, screaming, etc. The problem here, as with most RPGs, becomes metagaming.

 

An example is in the d20 system in which I had a Level 8 character beat Darth Vader because of smart picking of stats, feats, and skills (and me not being dumb enough to catch it in time until he did it). In RPGs that reward posing etc, you run into characters that would never strike a pose before an attack doing it just to get extra dice points.

 

Finally, for large scale RPGs where you want people constantly joining you get a catch up lag. For example, if I joined a Dragon Ball Z RPG where everyone already had a power level of 1,000,000 and you only started with a power level of 5,000 that person wont want to join because he could never catch up. WoW has had this problem it seems recently with certain guilds finishing content way too fast and casual players losing interest.

 

Just my thoughts.

[PhoenixForce 0]

Well yes stats should be used for character development but not for mobile suit development and it shouldn't be done by a dice roll. stats are gained usually when a character levels. Although this means more people play trying to level but it means everything relies too heavily on leveling up.

 

I think it would be better to add skill points which would be gained every couple of battles for mobile suit development. These skill points would give you access to more of the mobile suits abilities and the amount of customizing you can do to the mobile suit. A higher class mobile suit may be able to be upgraded further but then you don't . Of course each mobile suit would have basic abilities to begin with and each ability that you could learn would also be upgradeable. This would allow people to have the same mobile suits but with very different abilities.(e.g 2  ZAKUs  may be versing each other. One player might of increased their ZAKU in attack wheras the other may have lower attack but higher defence.)

 

In such a case that the mobile suits had roughly the same level of abilities, it would come down to the character's abilities and how they had placed their stat points.Although it may be a lot of work, it would make battles more interesting.

[Valiant 96]

t569ssgoku, care to share your plan for the conversion?

 

I'm actually working on a Gundam RPG battle system that would actually be implemented on the site. However, I'm refraining from diving into this heavy project until I'm sure that the concepts are well accepted and thought out.

[t569ssgoku 0]

I was using the revised core rulebook from Star Wars D20 along with some parts of the D20 Modern system to create it. The revised rules for space combat actually work very well for mobile suits (not so much for tie fighters and X-wings). The Fringer (renamed Guerrilla) , Tech Specialist (renamed Specialist), and Noble classes from the Star Wars Book. The Soldier Class was basically broken into two classes, one that specializes in Piloting, and one that specializes in personal combat. I did that mainly to explain how Kira is able to shoot off the arm of a mobile suit, but can't hold a gun properly in Gundam Seed. (Note: Making Cagalli was a pain, she could have ranks in about 4 main classes). I haven't gotten onto making prestige classes, although i see no reason that the Elite Solider, Pilot Ace, Officer (will be completely redone), and Crimelord classes making it into the cut. In creating characters it is kinda painful that Yzak, Athrun, Nicol, etc all have extremely similar builds. And in terms of roleplaying, I really assume that 90% of players want to be pilots, since it would be pretty boring to be anything else on a ship other than maybe the captain. For example, in a D20 Star Wars campaign once upon a time I ran, they had a transport, and basically everyone other than the pilot and the co-pilot really did not do much. Occasionally someone in a turret got to do some real fun stuff but its a real problem I haven't figured out how to correct for members like the crew of the Archangel, since basically everyone would just be rolling to see if they can carry out the Captain's and Combat Commander's orders.

 

The main problem is doing things to explain how Kira and Athrun do some of the things they did. Namely Kira's inability to miss. The problem in combat is are feats such as Combat Expertise applied to both piloting and personal combat. If I separate them, I basically double the feats that are required for the game. Also, do I make alot of the special manuvers, such as Kira's flyby where he beam saber's the mobile suit's heads, etc. without just them being Kira flies up and attacks.

 

Also, its just alot of work and guessing in terms rating weapons, how to do missiles, and streamlining things where you can to make the best results for good combat that doesnt involve twenty rolls a second.

 

I am still real REAL early in the making, and I haven't gotten a good chance to get into the new SAGA rules for Star Wars to see if those work better.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Guest

[Roromi 417]

Alright first off im only going to say that I skimmed through the posts and I think I got the just of what everyone is talking about and to be honest I’m scared that there hasn’t been much of a discussion of whether or not there should even be a system.

 

True, I think that there should be some sort of constraints as to winning and loosing battles but the moment it falls onto the individual players I begin to grow concerned with where this site might heading to.

 

I enjoy writing and trying to become a better writer it’s the reason why I first joined the site way back when. I try to stay away from sites with complicated battle systems because frankly put I don’t have the patience nor the interest in figuring all that stuff out. I know that if I ever wanted to do something like that then there are the other sites out there to do it.

 

I know I might be bringing this out a bit late in this discussion but I simply want to say that you should be careful with what you’re planning. Compared to the old site Valiant and everyone else has made leaps and bounds in improving the way things work and while so far everything looks great we still haven’t had a chance to really test it out and see if the changes work or not, in terms of preventing god modding at least.

 

If the choice was up to me I wouldn’t bother with a battle system. I think that if we keep an eye on our individual battles the way we do our coliseum matches things will be fine. If anything I think the battles should be more determined by faction strength and tactics rather than individual stats. It should be up to each person to be responsible with how they manage their characters in battle.

 

There's my two cents worth.

[Valiant 96]

t569ssgoku, I feel that if you are going to build the system around the canon characters, it would be very hard to find a proper fit. Instead, think of it as creating a system for the Cosmic Era world rather than base everything off the actual character abilities. That way, you can make things more realistic, especially since all characters that exist in the Advent Destiny world would be subject to this system.

[t569ssgoku 0]

I wasnt commenting on that part for this system, just if I was going to make a D20 CE Rule-subset, it is kinda required, but it is useful anyways to give people a base understanding of where they might fit in general terms. For example, Luke's stats at the end of Return of the Jedi give players the general idea of the power level of a newly appointed Jedi Knight.

[PhoenixForce 0]

Well if it is going to have to include canon characters then its not going to work.If we allow canon characters into the RP even as a mere example, it is going to stuff up our time line.Maybe you could use experienced AD characters instead?

[t569ssgoku 0]

Not really to be honest. I have no clue of anyone in this RP outside of about half of ZAFT. An example is only useful if the majority of people who view this site get it. For example, if I was a level 10 pilot it would to be useful to know that was just a little lower Kira Yamato's general experience and  skill level at the end of Gundam Seed (in my D20 system I believe Yamato was 11th level at the end of GS) because most people should have a clear view of what he was able to accomplish at that time (5-6 episodes really). Also, I never said use them in the RP. In the D20 Star Wars books at the back they list canon characters at different stat levels throughout their campaigns. It doesnt mean that they have to be in it, but it gives a good idea about Power Levels in general. For example, you could use something along the lines of.

 

The average redcoat ZAFT pilot has stats along the lines of these...................however, high level characters from the Gundam Universe such as Heero Yuy or Kira Yamato have stats that look more like this............

 

Second, I was more ranting about just my problems with the D20 system in general. It does not seem to me that you guys want to go that far into creating a battle system since systems as deep as D20 are meant very much for small to medium groups, not for 200 people free-for-alls.

[Valiant 96]

There's a Star Wars online RPG based on the D20 system with hundreds of players. If things are automated, it wouldn't be that much of a trouble.

 

I also understand that there area players who wants to retain the pure novel-type RPG, since this is the reason we are all gathered here. However, it's been a dream, for me and my brother, to create a Gundam RPG online. Perhaps it might take off as a separate project instead.