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Re: Gundams as MW - about old ones


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Well, as we all know, someone can get Gundam as his/her MW. Even though it won't be right now, but I got  question:

Gundams were experimental, prototype weapons. But I'm sure, that all of you understand, that old ones - as Strike, for example, could be even less powerfull, than custom MPMS - you all can easily remember, how easy Strike Rouge lost his legs SEED Destiny. Or Stargazer's Blu Duel's "death" - only 3(!) MPMS just teared him apart. So I ask - maybe we should grade Gundams by power? 'cause some of them could be just outdated as "uberpower".

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The Strike Rouge was indeed outdated, but Kira wasn't necessarily trying to kill those pilots in the Zaku Warriors/Gouf units. Also, a normal unit couldn't possibly sustain fire from beam cannons as long as the Rouge did. Its shield was designed to block beam rifle/pistol blasts, not beam geared for artillery. Also, it was the Eternal, Gaia, and Rouge against a squad of 20+ mobile suits, which they were being shot at all angles.

 

The main reason why the Blu Duel lost so badly in Stargazer is credited due to pilot error. The Bucues are hard to defeat in a wide open area, which in this case was the open snowy plains outside Berlin. Her unit is mainly support, and she should have stayed back where the Verde Buster Could have supported her. In the end, she got in way over her head, and was methodically taken out by the Bucue's superior maneuverability and gang tactics.

 

In the end its the pilot that make a difference not the machine. Its wise to simply dodge large beam cannon blasts than try to be a hero, and shield block it. 100 percent of the time if you don't have a beam shield, and are using a physical one it will shatter taking the arm with it. In the end, I would believe it is based on the pilot, and knowing what your MS can or cannot do.

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Basically in this RP world, Gundam is just a high performance suit, and is somewhat of a status symbol. You will be able to have an advantage against standard units of varying types, but you would have to get out of the whole Gundam "pwns" everything mindset. Its been proven in RP, and in some of the series, that a mass produced MW can be an even match. 

 

IE: Char for example in his Zaku II against Amuro, and Cima from 0083, taking out the Gp01 with a Gelgoog Marine.

 

Gundam usually requires a role player that is of high quality, and is capable of thinking strategically. In the anime, the Main Character could just rush in and destroy everything. In the Role Play world, you're not a main character just an average Joe in the fictional world. Your mobile suit may have more raw power, speed, and weaponry. But you'd have to think of the negatives, such as power consumption and what type of MW you are against.

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Well as time progresses and the world realizes the suit's power/has one. Then they take it and make similar suits or weaker ones such as Murasame and Astray.

 

It's not that Gundam's are technically getting weaker, it's just that once they are seen to the world and the technology is also seen that people create better suits and weaponry to destroy those suits.

 

It's basically like this

 

First Few weeks/Months a new suit is made: Powerful

 

Over Months and People learn it's specs or as SEED shows/Steals the suits: Make Similar suits with additions/editions.

 

Original Suit: Now Weaker

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Wilhelm hit the nail on the head. It all boils down to the RPer's skill.

 

kct is right in his comment too. Gundams are generally prototypes and hence they have the latest technology at the time of their construction.

 

What we classify as Gundam would be those that have advanced equipment such as nuclear power plant, phase shift armour etc. Regardless of whether they are old or not, they still have these equipment, which might make a difference in the battle field.

 

My question to darkphoenix is, what do you mean by grading them by power?

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Well, I thought about 4 grades - basically by generations:

1) - less powerful - original 5 + non-upgraded BF,RF and GF

2) - first ZAFT's Gundams + 2nd generation of EA's

3) - 2nd ZAFT's generation + Actaeon's refitted originals

4) - Destiny, Legend, SF, IJ, Akatsuki

I just can't imagine situation, where Strike beat SF or Destiny))

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IT CAN happen in any way, as the rest have said, it all comes down to RPing skills, what happens, and not to mention smart (or crazy or cunning) tactical planning (some of us did outsmart Gundams and the like in the old boards). In the world of Gundam, anything can happen.

 

Charging in without a plan is suicide, like what happened to the cannon fodders, but as Shinn demonstrated in episode 34 of GSD, it can happen.

 

Valiant: Not only Gundams have these advanced technology, even the prototype versions of several mobile suits (ZAKUs especially) have these technologies in them.

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Of course that won't happen, it is something most nameless cannon fodders do.

 

For the Impulse vs. Freedom part, define by 'Freedom less powerful, than Imp.', because whenever you are fighting with a nuclear-powered mobile suit, whoever runs out of energy first would be the one to suffer (something which the Freedom won't suffer).

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I doubt, that players, that got Gundams, would charge without plans. And about Imp. vs Freedom - by my grading, Freedom less powerful, than Imp.))

 

*glances back at Lilium in the Out Frame vs Artemis Thorson in the GuAIZ*

 

Lilium:....... V_V

 

If other units are more powerful then the Strike, how come we aren't mass-producing units with PS armor yet?  Remember that Gundams had a much larger budget attached to them than any mass production suits, meaning there are usually things in them that still give them the edge over other suits; PS armor, Mirage Colloid, more advanced battery pack, etc.  Strike is still stronger than a lot of other units out there, but when its facing a lot of enemies (who, while being cannon fodder, probably have lots of training under their belt), even it can be taken down.  The only reason that Gundams aren't being mass produced (with the exception of the Destroy) is because they are expensive in comparison to a MP suit like the Ginn or Zaku.  I don't think that any Gundam could be counted as being outdated, unless you are comparing it to other Gundams.

 

Another example of the whole skill over MS thing would be during the 'Break the world' incident.  Not only did many of the mercs hired end up matching Shinn's impulse for a fair while, but Athrun, Dearka, and Yzak were able to take care of the Extended's gundams while using Zaku's (And Lunamaria fought Stellar pretty evenly with her Zaku as well).

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The issue with the Impulse vs Freedom battle were the pilots. Kira wasn't aiming at the cockpit and nor was he into the battle as much as escaping.

 

If Kira were an rp'er, he boned himself over at that point. Shinn just bombarded him with mech parts that get blowing up to him at close range and it took away more than enough chunks out of his suit to prepare him for the jousting that he did.

 

Again, Kira didn't aim at the cockpit as he got the head. Shinn on the other hand didn't know where the cockpit of the Freedom was so he assumed stomach.

 

Reality; Freedom is stronger, it was just badly used. Shinn exploited the bad RP'ing of Kira and pwned him.

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Another thing to take into notice, is that beam weaponry is becoming standardized with projectile weapons taking the backseat. Beam weaponry has taken an overhaul due to the Hyperion B. Sub-Machine-Gun, and the Zaku B. Rifle. They utilized a clip system that would lower the strain on a battery, this would allow the units to operate longer, and be able to sustain a constant beam assault depending if they have sufficient clips.

 

So in short, Phase Shift Technology is slowly becoming obsolete before it even became main-streamed. Mirage system on the other hand, are still useful in the CE. I would say that units that sport this technology should be restricted to Special ops characters controlled by veteran players.

 

Also, we should just use the Rating system they put on Rengou Vs Zaft II plus. They have roughly all the suits ranked on tiers numbered 1-4

 

**also we don't know how long Shin and Rey were studying the Freedom. Knowledge is power, and the more you know about your enemy the easier it is for you to subdue them.

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So in short, Phase Shift Technology is slowly becoming obsolete before it even became main-streamed. Mirage system on the other hand, are still useful in the CE. I would say that units that sport this technology should be restricted to Special ops characters controlled by veteran players.

 

Of course, you do have a point there about the beam weapons, that is why other alternatives are being looked at (i.e. Trans-Phase, Variable Phase Shift) to reduce the mobile suit's dependency on PS armor. Even in the Universal Century timeline, the solution taken is to simply make the mobile suits more agile and faster. Also, 'avoid a beam rifle being pointed at you'.

 

On the thing about Mirage Colloid, I do not even know if it will see the light of the day here, there could have been treaties to ban the use of it (although we know no one really follows treaties in the world of Gundam).

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I hope this discussion also implies MW vs foot soldier. Thou I have never seen, read or heard of a single or a squad of mere foot soldier taking on MWs and successfully destroying/disabling/ or killing the pilot. As you all know, all MWs have one common weakness and that is the pilot. Take out the pilot...you take out the machine. A single anti-material bullet of significant size at is capable of puncturing through armor can also do the job, the faster way(or even cheaper way ). Or it might be also of some sort of energized PS bullet even.

 

Another way could be also, assaulting the MW and place high explosive charges on critical locations. Wait, I just remembered...in one of the episodes of GS... were Kira first fought BuCUEs...those "sand people" were carrying some sort of RPG weapons that seem to be able to do a small significant damage on those MWs. Or the high explosive trap they set.

 

Well...I just hope that we wont neglect a single foot soldier's capability to even take on a huge MW...or even a Gundam

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@konigstiger: Yeah, I'm reminded of how foot soldiers fought against Mechs in the Battletech universe.  They would sneak up and then use some sort of grappling device to quickly ascend to either the Mech's knee joints or hip joint, jam a satchel charge there, then drop off, and then run for dear life before the charge explodes.

 

Even with PS or w/e armor, most Gundams don't have such protected armor around the joints.  So yeah, there's always that potential. 

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Well, to bring in a modern day military point of view, the technology you're using is only going to amplify your own skill as a user.  Mwu La Flaga makes this point very clear throughout almost the entire storyline of both series.  In GS Mwu always pilots a MW that is at a disadvantage to whatever else he is up against, whether it's the Moebius Zero going up against a GINN or even Strike Gundam versus Providence.  Mwu does a reasonably good job of showing that it isn't the level of technology you posses but the skill of the pilot that matters as time and again he returns from sorties that would have been the death of the average pilot.

 

The only time that Mwu's full skills are brought to bare is at the end of Destiny as he pilots Akatsuki.  In a machine that can allow his skills to be completely manifested Mwu kicked some serious @$$ on the battlefield.

 

In a way examining the strength of a MS is a lot like battlefield tank doctrine, if you don't know exactly what I'm talking about bear with me.  When looking at a tank versus tank battle does the specs of the tank matter?  Yes, you'd have to be an idiot to not say "yes."  But the crew is also important, the world's best technology is useless if you can't use it to it's full potential.  In the same way infantry versus MS can be examined.

 

In the GS universe it does seem that there are some weapons available to the infantry that can destroy MS, how else could Earth have held out against ZAFT for a year?  There are tanks, cars with missile launchers mounted on them, and turrets that fire conventional ballistic weapons that can destroy a MS, I mean if you want to destroy something it's just a matter of building a weapon powerful enough; but you probably already know all that.  But for the average infantryman this is a little different.  The evidence given doesn't seem to support the idea that a weapon strong enough can be carried and operated by one individual.  Sure, the RPG-like weapons that Cagalli and her allies used had some affect, but it seemed to be more of an annoyance than a threat.  The only effective attack that one man could use against a MS is probably a trap which would make use of a large amount of explosives, designed to either destroy a MS' legs or the main camera or to immobilize it so that it becomes nothing more than a giant hunk of metal.

 

If you're clever enough you could probably even take down a gundam that way, although the amount of explosives you'd need to use would have to be similar to the amount of force that the explosion of a heavy artillery round creates.

 

So here's my encouragement to you, be creative.  Every weapon, no matter how strong, has a weak point.  If you don't believe me just watch the last 45 minutes of Star Wars: A New Hope, known to the younger people on this site as Episode IV.  If Luke Skywalker can destroy a battle station the size of a small planet with just two proton torpedoes then taking out a stronger MS should be easy, so long as that pilot can't use the force.

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Of course, having a quicker mobile suit also means its harder to control. The slower one, if the pilot has enough skill, can probably pull off a few tricks to get a good opening in the faster mobile suit. Character shields removed, of course. I'm surprised that even when they did mention that mobile suit technology was literally for "mobile suits of power", or possible technology to even replace lost limbs no one has ever used a human sized one yet to blast open cockpits with.

 

If anyone played the very old PS 1 game, Star Wars: Demolition, Boba Fett was a pain in the ass because he was in an armored suit, going against vehicles like Snowspeeders, and the like. His small size makes him a very hard target to get a lock on. Especially with a good jetpack, jamming and EMP/flash missiles.

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Actually, that is the advantage the mobile suits in 'the second phase of Universal Century' (F91 era) have, because their smaller size makes it easier to avoid fire from the bigger guns. Probably for the sake of fairness, most mobile suits are kept to similar dimensions, unless a massive technology jump has taken place.

 

Of course, never to say that the slower mobile suits stood no chance, heck, the dude piloting the F91 managed to hold himself in the F91-era version of the Guntank or something.

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